Denis Yavnuk

Artem Berman: Hello, yeah, hello!

Denis Yavnuk: Can you hear me?

Artem Berman: Yes, clearly, actually. Basically, I have a normal connection. It gives at least 50 Mbit. Therefore, I think, in theory, everything should work fine. Let’s do it in the following way. I’ll just turn on the voice recorder. I’ll just start to ask you the questions, and we’ll just talk. As you can see, the questions, in fact, are quite simple in the sense that they concern business and work. They do not touch on privacy; let us say, I am not asking you to share any military secrets. Therefore, I think, in principle, you will be comfortable answering. It should not cause anything negative. The story is this: all in all, it will be written in English, so we can really just speak directly in English.

Denis Yavnuk: Well, the thing is that it is better for an English audience, so it is better to do it in English.

Artem Berman: So, basically, we have three options, three types of questionnaires. The first one, ‘I never had a job’. The second is, ‘I was employed, but I am not employed presently / I am not employed anymore’. And then, ‘I am currently employed’. Which one is your case? I think your case…

Denis Yavnuk: Maybe, I am in the third option. I am employed.

Artem Berman: Yeah, you are. Including if you are self-employed or if you are the owner of a company. Yeah. I would say that would be the right option for you. So, let me then open the questionnaire. So, I have it in front of me and then we will go.

Denis Yavnuk: I am employed and I am a member of the team.

Artem Berman: Let us start. Basically, the first several questions will be pretty much straightforward. Like easy questions which you will be answering with more or less ‘yes’ or ‘no’. And then there will be a series of open questions. So, what I am running and what we are doing right now is a semi-structured interview. Semi-structured means there is a structure, but the questions are really open. So, the more information you can share, the more details you can provide, the better. So, it is not like, ‘Are you a man? Yes or no? Yes. Okay, cool, next question’. Like, ‘Do you smoke? Yes or no? I do not smoke. Okay, great, next question’. It will be rather, ‘Tell me, what do you think about smoking in general?’ And then you have the opportunity to share whatever details you feel like sharing. So, the first questions are just formal ones. So, the first one, “Do you allow us to use your interview for scientific research work?”

Denis Yavnuk: Yes.

Artem Berman: And the second question, “Do you allow us to publish your interview on the website?”

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, feel free to use this interview on your website.

Artem Berman: Thank you. And third, “Would you like to use your real name or some kind of pseudonym for the publication?”

Denis Yavnuk: I decided to use my real name.

Artem Berman: Cool. Cool. It’s okay. Great. Again, if there are some questions and you are not sure about the answer right now, you can tell me, “Well, I will think about that and I’ll get back to you later on”. Right? Just for your information. So, any time you feel you need some time to think, just let me know. The question number four, “What is your name?”

Denis Yavnuk: Denis Yavnuk.

Artem Berman: The question number five is easy, “Your contact information”. So, I am gonna need your e-mail or phone number. Just write it down on Skype. Actually, I have your e-mail, but nevertheless, you can provide it later on Skype.

Denis Yavnuk: You can use my e-mail.

Artem Berman: Perfect.

Denis Yavnuk: And don’t use it for spam. And don’t forget to send me a New Year invitation.

Artem Berman: Sorry, what kind of invitation? Oh, I am a little bit slow in the morning. Ha-ha. Now I get it. Yeah. Happy B-day as well, right? Well, right. Let’s move on. “How old are you?”

Denis Yavnuk: Today I am 29.

Artem Berman: 29. And gender, like male.

Denis Yavnuk: Male.

Artem Berman: Got it. “What kind of disability do you have?” Again, please provide whatever information you are comfortable giving away. So, it’s like…

Denis Yavnuk: It’s… It’s okay. It’s muscular dystrophy. Weakness usually begins early in boys and worsens quickly. Most of the guys are helpless without electric wheelchairs and have special needs.

Artem Berman: Yeah. Got it.

Denis Yavnuk: But it’s okay. There is still an option to work and even to be happy.

Artem Berman: So, you told me, basically, what happened. At what age did it start to show itself?

Denis Yavnuk: I was born with this condition.

Artem Berman: I know, but were the symptoms also obvious right from birth?
Or for several years it was kind of normal, but then you started to suffer from the symptoms?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, until the age of 10 it was ok, but then from 10 it became hard and impossible to move without using a wheelchair and additional help.

Artem Berman: So, pretty much from the age of 10. So, next question, “How did it affect your life in all dimensions, like social life, family life, personal life, educational, professional, etc.?” So, you were more or less a 10-year-old kid. But when it all started to happen, how did it affect your life?

Denis Yavnuk: It affected it, but I am doing the “rehabilitation through work” thing.

Artem Berman: So, what was the process of entering society? Who and what helped? What were the obstacles, if there were obstacles?

Denis Yavnuk: As for me, work is the best way to return to society, and you use communication in meetings; in work situations you speak to other people. You can see another world. It’s great for me to have a connection with all the people and companies I want. This communication builds a world around me.

Artem Berman: Aha.

Denis Yavnuk: I see that… I feel active. I feel active when I have communication, yes, with the people.

Artem Berman: So, I would say it’s not only a matter of, you know, earning money, right? For you, it’s also a way of social rehabilitation and being able to communicate with the people around you, with the world. So, your computer is your window or your door to the world outside, yes?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. The window and door to the world. I use it to communicate and I feel that… I feel not…

Artem Berman: Isolated. Isolated, right, is the word? You don’t feel isolated because of your ability to communicate with the people outside of you.

Denis Yavnuk: Yes.

Artem Berman: Okay, got it. Now, ‘Your education.’ Again, you can provide whatever information you feel is applicable, and it can be a small narrative. Did you have any education before you were diagnosed with your condition? As you say, you were like 10 years old when you started to have obvious problems. So, did you have any education at that time? Probably, you were going to school, right?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, I was going to school, and then I had school at home. It was interesting to have communication with teachers. To have contact and have education at home. Then there was the university.

Artem Berman: So, basically, you finished school this way and then you went to the university, right?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. At the time when I was at the university, it was harder to reach the university’s location. But it was okay. I had and have friends who help me to get around.

Artem Berman: So, basically, you were going to university like physically. It’s not like teachers or professors from the university were visiting you at home. Rather you were going to the university.

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, sure. I had to visit the place so I could communicate with the professors, with everyone at the university.

Artem Berman: Okay, so, several questions about this period of your life. First of all, what specialization do you have, and why did you choose this specialization?

Denis Yavnuk: It’s computer systems. From the time I was at school until now, I have been doing this stuff for more than 15 years.

Artem Berman: What does it say in your diploma? Are you a programmer or a system engineer? Who are you in your diploma?

Denis Yavnuk: System engineer of computer science.

Artem Berman: Clear, clear, clear.

Denis Yavnuk: And I have a… bachelor’s degree.

Artem Berman: Yes, and, in fact, you wrote your first programs when you were still at school, and therefore the choice of specialization was an easy story, in the sense that you didn’t have to choose. You did what you liked, and it was just…

Denis Yavnuk: I clearly understood that being involved in other areas would be, well, a loss of resources. I mean, working with computer systems would be the most effective, that is, the highest KPI can be achieved while working with them. Well, in addition to this, you do what you like.

Artem Berman: Well, super. Well, I’ll add on my behalf, again, due to the disabilities that both of us have. Let’s say, working with a computer, on the one hand, makes the chances equal. It does not matter whether you can move or not. Well, it is clear that neither you nor I would go to work as porters or welders today. Well, probably, we would not go there for another reason. You know, there is a joke like this: “You aren’t a miner, by any chance?” “Well, why by chance? I am not a miner for a reason.” Well, never mind.

Denis Yavnuk: Often it turns out that when I am loaded with work, I feel like a miner.

Artem Berman: Can imagine. So, you have a bachelor’s degree from the university. Do you plan to continue your education in the foreseeable future, to obtain, for example, a master’s degree, or to get an MBA, or to study somewhere else?

Denis Yavnuk: It can be said that I just didn’t have too much time for studying starting from the second year, because I had projects and those projects were very important. I mean, the dotcom boom was over, and the startup boom began.

Artem Berman: Yes.

Denis Yavnuk: It just coincided with that time when I started to study. So, I went to study, but at the same time, I had to work hard on clients’ start-ups. What is more, I had to study and pass the exams. Later on, I had to choose: either study or work. I chose work.

Artem Berman: Aha.

Denis Yavnuk: Since, well, let’s say, it was important not only for development but also for money.

Artem Berman: Well, it’s logical. Clear. Well, I have this question. Well, let us say, there is a nuance here. In the sense that you are, although a member of the team, well, you created this team, and you work as if on your own, and work from home; well, however, the question sounds like this, the twelfth one, “Do you have any support, any special treatment connected with your disability from the organization where you are employed?” And if you do, then what kind? Maybe a flexible schedule? For example, any special adaptation of the workplace or anything else?

Denis Yavnuk: Most likely, yes. I mean, it is a free schedule from morning until evening and on weekends. It means…

Artem Berman: The slave of the lamp. Yes, yes, yes.

Denis Yavnuk: I think that there is a big difference: you work from 9.00 till 21.00 on weekdays. Roughly speaking, sometimes there are working meetings after 10 p.m. This is taking into account the fact that the next negotiations with customers, who are in Kiev, start at 9 a.m. On weekends, you have the opportunity to work on one project, when there is a chance to get rid of a bunch of calls and very small urgent tasks and to do more important things, the ones you usually never get around to.

Artem Berman: I understand you. For me, if I go to the office, then this day is lost. There are constant meetings, conversations. If I need to work, then I stay at home and have the opportunity to work. That is almost the same.

Denis Yavnuk: I absolutely agree with you. It’s when you hold meetings outside your own territory during the day, in my case, that is, the office, that is, when you work not at home but in the office, you get a big loss of time. That is, in the end, you can sum it up with a formula: if you work in a home office or not far from home, a three-minute walk from your house, let’s say, this way you can save from 60 to 80 working hours a month.

Artem Berman: Yes, it’s logical.

Denis Yavnuk: So, it turns out to be a flexible schedule. I believe that in this case, I’m even more occupied with the work, constant technical support, well, that is, working as a system administrator or a manager for projects and start-ups.

Artem Berman: Okay, clear. Well, that is, if we seriously answer the 12th question, then, in principle, there is no special support related to disability, and since you also manage the business in general, then you have an irregular working day, and your privilege is, let’s say, to work more than most other people. The only thing is…

Denis Yavnuk: I would add that I’m not the one who manages; I work in a team, that is, I’m one of the team.

Artem Berman: Well, nevertheless, you are the team leader.

Denis Yavnuk: Partly. Mostly a team member.

Artem Berman: I see.

Denis Yavnuk: It is very important to note that this is my individual case, but I am sure that many people need an adapted workplace. I mean that most people cannot create such conditions for themselves. They need these conditions to be created by companies. If a company can take a competent approach to this issue, create real jobs for people with such needs, the company will get a reliable, honest and high-quality employee for many years.

Artem Berman: Well, that is, you think that, let’s say, there is what is called a job hopper, well, a person who constantly changes jobs. In the case of a person with disabilities, if the company can meet him/her halfway, the chance of such a scenario is minimal. That is, most likely, he/she will work for the company as long as possible and, so to speak, return the favor, right?

Denis Yavnuk: That’s right. I mean the company gets only benefits.

Artem Berman: Okay, I hear you, I hear you. Hence, the thirteenth question, again, taking into account the specifics of your employment. Well, I’ll ask, and you will answer as you see fit. Well, “Have you ever been promoted? Well, promotion, that is, do you see some kind of career path for yourself? Some kind of career ladder? Do you see yourself as a candidate for promotion, for some new prospects? If so, why? And why not, if you do not see yourself as a candidate for career growth?

Denis Yavnuk: Well, most likely it has been like this from the beginning of my activity. I work as a system administrator, partly as a developer in programming, in web systems and in projects. That is, if projects are associated with e-commerce, web-based internal use, well, I mean, web-based systems for companies. So, in general, I started my activity in this direction. I have been working like this till now. Well, in the last ten years, the direction of mobile applications has appeared. This is what makes sense to develop, that is, it is the adaptation of the software, but just for the authorization, and for the principles of how smartphones and tablets work.

Artem Berman: So, career growth is, let’s say, horizontal growth for you, right? That is, growing horizontally, mastering new technologies, obtaining new knowledge and so on? Have you ever seen a prospect for yourself, such as “I am becoming a group manager? Well, this group is growing, I am becoming the director of the company, well, and so on”. What about this?

Denis Yavnuk: Most likely, there is a sphere of e-commerce systems, and this sphere is so big and deep that I do not think that, well, that is, I know that in the next ten years I will have a lot of work in this line of activity. I mean, I need to deepen my knowledge in the direction of e-commerce and web-systems.

Artem Berman: However, don’t you plan to grow vertically? Roughly speaking, isn’t moving from a programmer to a manager in your plans yet?

Denis Yavnuk: I do not know, maybe, you know. There have been no such proposals.

Artem Berman: Well, you know, it sometimes happens by itself, somehow. That is, at some stage, you are increasingly negotiating, you are getting more and more… You communicate with customers, with clients, that is, you stop writing the code. The code is written by other people and projects are being implemented by other people, and you are just a manager in a team that writes projects. You communicate with customers, and in a year or two, you suddenly find out that you are, in fact, not a programmer but a manager. Doesn’t this happen, isn’t it planned?

Denis Yavnuk: Well, the thing is that our sphere of activity is very narrow, difficult and with heavy demands. Technological projects are the line where small teams of one/two/three people work. It is very difficult to grow horizontally, to grow towards management. There is a need to solve urgent problems, and these tasks get solved. There is a need for the automation of processes. I mean that professional growth goes rather into the depth of technology than into its width.

Artem Berman: On the other hand, you can recruit ten teams of one/two people, take ten projects, and this will be the path of development towards, let’s say, a large outsourcing company, where you are the director.

Denis Yavnuk: Of course, I have considered this path. Well, I would rather do what is needed at the moment than rely on what I want. Then it is possible just to say that there is a need for the automation of processes, and the goals of automation can develop into start-ups. A business idea that is monetized, and it’s easy to build separate teams for such projects. Well, and these are high-tech projects, that is, they are high-tech projects and projects that have the ability to be useful for people, that is, to solve a real problem and give some benefit.

Artem Berman: That is, in sum, you are not setting yourself any specific goal here? Moving from programmer to manager, well, if it happens organically, due to certain circumstances, then this possibility is also present and you do not exclude it?
Denis Yavnuk: Yes, of course. Well, here I would correct you a little: not a programmer, but more likely a system administrator.

Artem Berman: Well, yes, more as a system administrator. I have understood you. Now the next question, “What are the biggest difficulties and challenges, well, related to disability, present in your work?”

Denis Yavnuk: Well, I do not even know what to say. There are none. Here, I think you know the joke: “Where is the disabled person? The disabled person is where you left him.” It is just a joke.
Artem Berman: Well, I know. I’m thinking about this joke. I think. I think about what you’re talking about.

Denis Yavnuk: The conclusion here is that the restriction is somewhere inside you, a restriction somewhere in your head.

Artem Berman: You know, can I specify something?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, of course.

Artem Berman: The disabled person is where you left him or the disabled person is where he left himself, the locus of control? Are you a victim of circumstances, or are you a person who controls your life?

Denis Yavnuk: The disabled person is where he left himself.

Artem Berman: Well, you see!

Denis Yavnuk: You yourself make the decision about how you want to live your life and what you can do for yourself and for others.

Artem Berman: Uh-huh. Still, the locus of control is inside the person. Hence, by the way, I have the 15th question, which fits very well with this part of our conversation with you, ‘What was the main reason for you to start working, and what motivates you to continue working?’ Why do you not consider the option of not working, why? Why did you start working and why do you continue?

Denis Yavnuk: I want to become rich.

Artem Berman: Well, that is, the financial aspect is, let us say, the basis, yes, or one of the main ones. Okay. Is that all? That is, I work for money, you know, like the principle of professional athletes in the US, right, “no pay, no game”. Is there something else?

Denis Yavnuk: The development of programming and the support of high-tech projects is creative self-realization; this is the best thing there can be for a creative person in a high-tech niche. In other words, I love my work. I try to wake up as early as possible in order to have time to do things before the working day starts for everyone else.

Artem Berman: Okay.

Denis Yavnuk: And, yes, I can conduct negotiations in the middle of the night. And people think I’m crazy.

Artem Berman: I’ve understood you. And the following question, “Can you imagine yourself not working? In other words, you stop working. And what, in your opinion, would be the consequences of such a step? Hypothetical, naturally, or real? Tell me.
Denis Yavnuk: No, I do not think it’s possible for me. That is, a person is created to work, to improve himself/herself.

Artem Berman: Okay, that is, you do not consider this possibility even hypothetically, so it is pointless to think about the consequences of such a step. That is, in that sense, since you will never do this, it does not make sense to discuss what would happen in this case.

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. Let us answer the next question.

Artem Berman: Well, “Is your current workplace, let’s say, your first job, or did you work somewhere else earlier, and if so, why did you leave the places where you used to work?”

Denis Yavnuk: So, my current workplace, yes, is my first job, and at the same time, I worked for Soft Plus. Well, and, let us say, I am still working with the developers and technical engineers of this company and many other companies with whom I have worked. That is, I did not have to change my activity dramatically.

Artem Berman: Well, roughly speaking, it was not that “I’m leaving this company and going to the next one. I retire”, that is, there was no such thing. The project ended, but you kept in touch. If prospects of some new field of cooperation appeared in the future, you would continue to cooperate there.

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. That is, the people with whom I work, the people with whom I have projects, this is very long-term communication, 15 years plus… Just like that.

Artem Berman: Well, yes. This is a wonderful joke, sort of like, “To take French leave means leaving without saying goodbye, but to leave the Jewish way means to say goodbye and not to leave. So let’s go.”
The next question is, ‘What does your family think about your work? Do they support your decision to work and, in general, the fact that you work, your enthusiasm?’ So, how do they feel about the fact that you work? Do they consider it normal, or consider you a hero, or are they against it? What about your family? How do the members of your family react?

Denis Yavnuk: Nobody pays much attention to this. I just work, and my family doesn’t consider it something extraordinary.

Artem Berman: Okay.

Denis Yavnuk: Like he is mad, he works too much, he works all the time.

Artem Berman: Do you have any special support or criticism? Nothing special to say, right?

Denis Yavnuk: Well, here it’s just necessary to note that if a certain startup is being developed, then it’s likely that people who are close to me can be involved in working on these projects.

Artem Berman: Including family members?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, including family members.

Artem Berman: Okay.

Denis Yavnuk: Considering their interests, they get included in my projects. Here I can give the example of “Accessible places”, that is, the members of my family helped me with ideas for this project.

Artem Berman: Okay. Interesting. Interesting. Yes. The nineteenth question, in principle, I already know the answer, but, so to speak, we are going by the protocol, so I will ask it. You have already answered, but I’ll ask you. So, “Does your work have any connection with your education?” Well, surprise me.

Denis Yavnuk: Well, I think that education is what you get while improving your working skills.

Artem Berman: So you work in your specialty. That is, it is a hundred percent, you actually do the same things you studied.

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. Yes, it is a one hundred percent match.

Artem Berman: Well, the next, ‘Do you think that higher education, the university education, in particular, that you got, has given you more opportunities in your work or in life?’ So did it help you?

Denis Yavnuk: Well, of course. At a minimum, you expand your circle of acquaintances, that is, you have a circle, access to other people with the same view of things, of technologies. That is, you have the opportunity to share your experiences and learn from other guys. What is more, you can speak with professors. That is, moreover, you have the opportunity to discuss with the professors how they acted, that is, how they worked on projects. Many things that we are doing now are a repetition of everything that people, physicists, mathematicians who are several generations older, did. They just passed this way at the beginning of the advent of programming technologies, and we came into this sphere when this sphere had already been formed.

Artem Berman: Yes. Well, fight…

Denis Yavnuk: Well, I think that this studying is very helpful for a future start and development.
Artem Berman: I hear your answer. Okay. Now the question is, ‘How do you maintain your level in your profession?’ I mean, courses, self-education, whatever. How do you maintain your relevance in what you do?

Denis Yavnuk: Each new project gives me new challenges. Very often I cannot understand clearly what to do. That is, I have to read the literature constantly, read about the experience of other people. That is, to understand how people with more experience than me have made decisions. Well, every few months great changes happen. In order to stay relevant, it is necessary not only to take on work but also to train on projects. To constantly study and be prepared for the fact that you will have to learn a lot during the work and maybe even start learning all over again. I mean, the things that are familiar to us change, and we have to adapt to how technologies change. We have to work differently, somehow in a new way.

Artem Berman: Well, I see, fine. I see, I see, I see, I see. Now the twentieth question, it is the penultimate one, although the last one will be quite complex, sort of creative. This question is connected with figures; therefore, well, you do not have to answer it with exact percentages or figures. You can just say significant / not significant and so on. Well, there are a number of sub-questions. So, “Do you get any financial help from the state?”

Denis Yavnuk: Yes. It is a pension of 50 dollars.

Artem Berman: Okay. The second question, “What percentage of your total income is this pension, and what percentage is the rest?” Well, that is, you can say that the pension is very small, that is, it is not necessary to say the figures. As you wish!

Denis Yavnuk: Well, it’s hard for me to say. Well, it’s clear that all my income is what I earn.

Artem Berman: Yes. That’s why…

Denis Yavnuk: My pension usually goes on phone payments.

Artem Berman: Well, that is, accordingly, the pension is really small, here in your case. That is, roughly speaking, the lion’s share of your income, we will not talk in figures, well, apparently more than ninety percent, is what you earn, and the pension is for mobile payments, right?

Denis Yavnuk: Yes, exactly.

Artem Berman: I’ve heard your answer and I understood it absolutely. So, now this is a philosophical question, “Does your current level of income satisfy you; that is, are you satisfied with the level of income that you have, or are you not happy with it?”
Denis Yavnuk: I always want to develop, I have very interesting rehabilitation projects, and I would like to attract a lot of money to these projects. Accordingly, I understand that I cannot rely on someone else, I can only rely on myself. Therefore, I see the point in working, earning and investing money in development.

Artem Berman: Fine. Clear. Really, it’s clear. Finally, I have a set of phrases and a task to finish this set of phrases. That is, roughly speaking, there are two or three words and an ellipsis here, and you should finish them. Finish as you see fit. With a word, with one sentence, with a story, as you wish. Well, the first one: «I am …»

Denis Yavnuk: I am a wonk.

Artem Berman: All right.

Denis Yavnuk: Freak. Freak is more correct.

Artem Berman: Okay. The second one, “Before the trauma I was…” It’s not a trauma but a diagnosis, and it’s from early childhood. If, relatively speaking, you remember, “Before my condition or before my diagnosis I was…” Or maybe you don’t remember what was before at all.

Denis Yavnuk: I was the same person as I am now.

Artem Berman: Okay. I see. The next, “I can…” or “I am able to…”

Denis Yavnuk: I can be useful.

Artem Berman: Okay. The next, «In the future I see myself…»

Denis Yavnuk: As a person who lives in balance.

Artem Berman: Okay. «I am afraid…»

Denis Yavnuk: that I won’t have enough time to work.

Artem Berman: And the last one, «I want …»

Denis Yavnuk: for people to be kinder to each other.

Artem Berman: Okay, I understood you. That will be it. Thanks for your time!

Denis Yavnuk: Thank you very much.

Artem Berman: Thank you very much.

Denis Yavnuk: Keep in touch.

Artem Berman: Yes, keep in touch.